Everyone seems to have different opinions about the shidduch “system.” Women blame men, men blame the women, everyone blames everyone. About the only thing people can agree on is that the situation stinks. Some of you may be familiar with Chananya Weissman’s www.EndTheMadness.org which attributes the problems to misguided perceptions of dating and improper assumptions of Jewish law. Following his impression, Chananya provides general solutions and even formulated a covenant for singles to follow to break the cycle of “social insanity.” While there is much truth in Chanaya’s analysis and solution, I find that his construction of the problem does not offer practical alternatives for singles. It is an important first step in fixing many of the horrible misconceptions that Orthodox Jews have about dating, but it alone will not help. Furthermore, as this post will show, his assessment is limited to a certain type of stupidity when the problem is with how people view dating and relationships in general.
Loyal readers of the site know of my own difficulties in dating in the Orthodox world. I fully admit that I am hardly an expert on love and relationships, and I’ve experienced more than my share of disappointments. Without starting a flame war of who is more to blame, I’d like to try to re-frame what many people already know and explain why things work the way they do, and offer an alternative mode of thinking. Before I get to my own perception, I’d like to relate the following anecdote.
A little while back, I had a negative experience with the online shadchan network www.SawYouAtSinai.com.1 At the persistent suggestions of some friends, I signed up for the free site. After you complete a profile, you chose one primary shadchan and up to two secondary shadchanim. One of my three choices was someone who is very highly regarded, and I had even worked with on one occasion.2 Within minutes of confirming my selection of her, I get an e-mail saying that the shadchan has a potential match for me. So I’m thinking she really is good, or at least is really serious about setting people up. So I log in to see whom she considers to be an appropriate match:
My ex-girlfriend.
Some general background here is in order. After knowing this person for several years, we decided to go out, and we dated for almost a year. This was hardly a typical shidduch which lasts a maximum of 4 dates. We got to know each other really well during this time, and for whatever reasons, it didn’t work out. After investing much time and emotional energy in this relationship, still decided it wasn’t right, a shadchan decides that it’s a good idea for us to date again. Knowing the ex had nothing to do with this, I was annoyed at the shadchan.
Frustrated, I let the e-mail sit for a while and focused on school assignments to calm down.3 Then I get the following message:
- You never got back to me if you would be interested in meeting X, I think she would be a perfect match for you. She lives in [deleted] and she is a great friend of mind. From your profile it seems it would be perfect, except maybe for the Isreal [sic] issue, but we can work on that.4
Please let me know your thoughts.
By this point, I had calmed down. I gave the shadchan the benefit of the doubt – perhaps she didn’t realize we had dated for a year and is making an honest suggestion. That we dated for so long would indicate that it would obviously be a legitimate suggestion. So I politely reminded her.
- Also, I know X; we dated for almost a year. In fact, I met you one Shabbat when X and I visited the [deleted].
My thought was that now she has two plausible possibilities. Either 1. move on and look for someone else or 2. inquire as to the nature of the relationship to get a better understanding of who I am and for what I am looking. Of course, we got option 3. Abject cluelessness.
- Does this mean you are not at all interested in pursuing X!! Any hope there?????????
The shadchan persists fully knowing that we had an extended serious relationship. I respond as follows:
- This is not an issue of me pursuing X. We tried, it didn’t work out. Unless you would have a detailed understanding of what was wrong and a reasonable expectation that things would be different, there doesn’t seem to be a point in trying again.
If the shadchan understood the relationship, and could give a reason why things would be better, I’d be open. Of course, at no time did the shadchan take the time to ask me about the relationship.5 Ignoring my last e-mail, the shadchan writes:
- To be completely honest, I know X very well and I would love to talk to you about it. I would not do it over the e-mail. My phone # is [deleted] or I can call you which ever you want. Just let me know.
The next day, she leaves a message on my cell phone.6 Now, I’m just livid. Cooling off some more, I call her back the next day. Oblivious to my previous e-mails, she simply says that she thinks we should try again. No understanding of the previous relationship, no suggestions for how things would be different, just simply “give it another shot.” I politely explained that there didn’t seem to be a point, and quickly got off the phone.
Some suggested to drop the shadchan and move on, and in the end I did since she obviously did not have my interests in mind.7 Friends of mine know how upset I was at this point. Not at the ex, who I stress is completely innocent in all of this, but at the shadchan and her mentality of dating and relationships. Next post, I will offer my interpretation of what happened here, why it’s endemic to most singles, and some suggestions for improvement.
1. I’m not the only one; check out Meredith’s recent misadventures.
2. She had suggested a person, whom I later met by chance at a Shabbat meal and we never actually went out. Skipping bizzare and juicy details, a mutual friend told me afterwards, “Yeah, I also thought of setting you guys up, but then you met each other.”
3. How sad is that?
4. One of our issues is that I plan on making aliyah eventually, while she does not. Based on conversations and experiences, I’ve realized “work on that” is really a code for “we’ll make you give in eventually.” As an aside, I’ve been working on my thoughts about dating an aliyah, and should be posting that shortly either here or at Kumah.
5. In fact she later said, “I don’t know, I don’t want to know.”
6. I gave it as contact info for my profile.
7. When she told the ex of this story, she added that I shouldn’t even be on the site in the first place.
That’s been my experience with these types of people as well. Try to hide as much info as possible and be extremely pushy. In their thinking, the more dates they set up, the higher the chances that one will work out. Other characteristics include being extremely nosy, asking questions persistently until they get an answer they want. They also do their best to shred you to pieces by meeking you feel like an antisocial loser, all the while stating that you’re creating a horrible reputation for yourself (how, you think, after all this a private conversation; not so – these people are the biggest loudmouths you’ve ever encountered), just because you turn down one of their ill-begotten shidduch ideas.
no comment about dating, but sympathies for footnote #3.
A lot of marriages are of people who once dated, broke up and then later gave it another chance. A LOT OF MARRIAGES!
This is the first “real” feedback I’ve heard about Saw You At Sinai…
I understand the matchmaker’s inclination: you guys got along before, so that’s not an issue. But she clearly really discounted your own experiences, essentially saying “you don’t know what you’re talking about…”
There are lots of people who are perfect for each other on paper. But that doesn’t necessarily translate into real life.
Clearly the Yenta persona’s based in some sort of truth: they’re a persistent, single-minded bunch. Between your experience and Meredith’s, I see little point in my trying out this site. Although…trauma and disappointment are always good for my writing.
why do i get the feeling that this, like most other problems in the orthodox community these days, has more to do with asserting individuality than anything else?
…it seems to me that the basic problem is one of a very deep-seated fear of bucking the system, of showing any form of individuality, or of politely telling the community to go to hell every once in a while. What we all need to do is become more interesting, differentiable people so that when it comes to dating it’s not a matter of trying to navigate a giant faceless mass.
i have to disagree with Josh, i dont think the stupidity is limited to relationships or dating, i think it’s much broader than that. Even ETM, which is great for what it is, is an attempt to modify existing frameworks, which IMHO is a waste of time.
As for aliyah, Josh,you’re absolutely right.
So far, I’ve been on the SYAS site for about 3 months and not much has come out of it. There are some things on which I’m not willing to compromise and they don’t seem to get that. This isn’t called being picky – I’m supposed to be finding my soulmate/best friend/roommate for the rest of my life, I’m entitled to have some standards.
I said I don’t care if he’s orthodox from childhood or not, all that matters is that he’s orthodox now – they give me people who visit bars/nightclubs occasionally. I said I can’t stand smoke (allergies) – they suggest someone who’s “trying to quit.”
I think this site has loads of potential. The problem is that when there’s 60 singles per matchmaker, the matchmaker will work harder for those that offer money. Even though it’s a free site, I think $$$ has major influence here. Plus, out of 4000 singles, what are the odds you’ll get someone normal? Close to zero when you don’t have the right ‘shaliach.’
I’d be cool to have Matchmaker-powers as a single. That way, you can set up your friends with someone you know they’ll actually consider but no one can abuse it and set themselves up.
Good luck to you. May you find your zivug bshaa tova umutzlachat.
I think we should not forget those THOUGHTFUL, KIND, and CONSIDERATE matchmakers who take the time to set us up, either through SawYouAtSinai (which I personally like and have had good dates through) or other methods. There are so many people who don’t think of singles at all because they are busy with their own lives. It is understandable because marriage and children come into the picture and most people don’t want to be bothered with “those picky singles.” The people who do take the time to set us up are usually doing so of their own volition and not for money, but for the desire to see other people find their basherts.
The kind of attitude displayed here is why many marrieds don’t even bother setting up singles. How can they know enough about each person in order to know that it is a good match? After hearing so much complaining, who wants to be accused of setting up people without proper forethought? But how many singles do we actually know that well?
Of course, there is a group of awesome people who are pure gems. There are a lot of those thoughtful and truly genuine people who set up people out of the goodness of their heart. Some of the ones I’ve met through the site aren’t part of that group, and I’m assuming the pushy one mentioned here or the obnoxious one in Meredith’s story aren’t either. “Those picky singles” could stand to tone it down a bit, but shouldn’t be expected to accept every suggestion from anyone simply because they’re still single.
Yeah, well, you (we?) get what you (we?) pay for.
And I?m very offended that off all the dating Yutopias you linked to, our ?special? one didn?t make the cut.
Frankly, I have never tried a matchmaker, and have gone out with much more non-Jewish girls.
People can be compatible (judging only by their personalities) but have a bad history together which negates the compatibility. So I disagree with the person above who wrote otherwise. A guy and girl should not be forced together when they no longer want to be.
Anyway, that’s my two cents.
Frankly, I have never tried a matchmaker, and have gone out with much more non-Jewish girls.
People can be compatible (judging only by their personalities) but have a bad history together which negates the compatibility. So I disagree with the person above who wrote otherwise. A guy and girl should not be forced together when they no longer want to be.
Anyway, that’s my two cents.
People who are perfect on paper: I call them Resume Boyfriends.
I call myself amateur because I don’t do this for money; I’ve read some of these comments and I appreciate “Remember the Good Stuff’s” comments especially. We take a lot of time out to sincerely help people and one of the reasons I got into it is because I care about helping my single friends and a lot of other single people out there, so much so that I went to matchmaker training to learn to improve my skills. Constructive criticism is welcomed, but not vitriol – that makes us want to help you a lot less.:)
The best thing ppl can do as singles esp. on a site like SYAS is know how to articulate who you are and what you want (which many don’t) and to cultivate a positive relationship with your matchmaker(s). I’ve been trying to do this w/singles but I can’t force you to call me and be in touch so I know you better and can be more effective. Another reason I got into this is to change the bad name that shadchanim unfortunately have bc of some bad apple shadchanim out there. Some of us are truly listening and do truly want to help, and that’s why we ask questions – not to get the “answer we want”, to get the answers that tell us who you really are and what you really want and what your real issues are so we can help you.
May everyone find their zivug b’shaah tovah!