I have to turn my head until my darkness goes
“Paint it Black” – The Rolling Stones
It’s about 80 degrees here in Chicago, and people on campus are already dressing accordingly.
That’s if you can call it “dressing.”
It’s not that I haven’t been exposed to this before – I mean I did live in Washington Heights for a few years – but I spent most of my time in the YU library (surprise). I’ve also heard the rantings about how women are judged by men and thus are forced to dress accordingly. Even some Orthodox women find “tzniut” rules unfair, difficult, or just really annoying.
For Jews, most people would cite legal sources, and say that certain dress is mandated by Jewish law.1 For the general society non-observant Jews, or frustrated observant Jews, we have books covering the “inspirational” merits of modesty. Still, this doesn’t seem to do it for many women.
Based on my current situation at UC, I’d like to add one more reason for modest dress. To put it as tactfully as possible, many women just don’t have the figure to be dressing in certain ways.2
It’s not a typical “Rabbi” answer and it might seem misogynistic, but it doesn’t make it any less true. Odd as it sounds, dressing modestly can make a women more attractive3 and as bad as the shidduch system is now, without the rules of tzniut, I’m sure it would be much much worse.
Like it or not, we do judge people based on how they look and carry themselves. And I also realize that society has imposed unrealistic expectations for how women (and men for that matter) are supposed to look. There are many degrees and qualities of attractiveness even beyond physical appearence. We also have our flaws. There’s no reason to emphasize them in public.4
1. Maybe I’ll get to the details in a later serious post.
2. This isn’t to suggest that women who can dress certain ways should do so. I’m sure that most if not all women think they look good the way they dress. I’m just saying that far too frequently, they’re just wrong or blind.
3. I fully acknowledge that my perception of what is or is not attractive has been conditioned by my upbringing. Even so, I’m guessing that people will agree with me on this point.
4. This would also apply to other areas such as personality.
Reminds me of the time my littlest took underwater photos of a morbidly obese woman wearing a thong bikini. Not the happiest time we ever had developing family vacation pictures.
Oh, just stop it. Even the shidduch “problem” is a bigger issue than how non-Jews dress. And you know what? First off, no skinny Jewish guy has “the figure” to be judging anybody. Body type and attractiveness IS culturally cued. A girl I would say is totally not hot still gets a chorus of “hey, baby” here in the Heights. And judging by the pregnant bellies, weight and body type has LITTLE to do with biological success. Like they say, the proof of the pudding–
I think what Josh was saying (but correct me if I’m wrong) is that the halakhot of tzniut sort of “even the playing field” when it comes to dating. If women who have good figures still have to dress modestly, then they won’t attract attention the way they might if they were allowed to show off their figure – this gives women who don’t have the perfect figure more of an equal shot.
You can still tell a good body from a bad EVEN in the most tsanua clothes. If a person is, unfortunately, not yafeh/yifat toar, non-revealing clothes just make him/her look like a non-hot person wearing non-revealing clothes!! If anything, it takes a BETTER build (for women, I mean) to still look good, and not dumpy, etc., in loose clothes.
This is what I tell girlfriends of mine who worry to excess about weight. I have always thought of myself as neither thin nor fat. I have the physique of a Kraut farmwife–small waist and more of a presence elsewhere. Considering I eat pretty much whatever I want, and have the metabolism of a wanderer in the midbar who eats every 11 days, I do all right. Got a friend who is noticeably thinner than me. OK. She worries all the time about diet, exercise, stuff like that. You know what? Except for the fitted skirts (men: that’s an interview-suit skirt that goes in below the hips, not a classic ankle-length skirt that hangs straight or slightly out below the hips) I wear her castoffs all the freakin’ time. And they aren’t too tight, either. YES, she’s thinner, but NO, the net effect ain’t no big deal. And as for naked, well, naked I can eliminate her any day of the week.
Why does this post get my goat? Why am I giving narcissistic examples? Because I know way too many ,men and women both, who lie, to themselves or to others, about the nuts and bolts of physical attraction. And it causes people so much grief. I’m not saying, “oh, you, Josh, are really attracted to people whom you SAY you’re not into.” I’m saying that, e.g., any given nutty male friend who won’t (necc.) go out with the gal who’s 20 pounds overweight ALSO won’t (necc.) go out with the girl who’s “normal” and “conventionally attractive,” OR the one who’s 20 pounds under. Barring nebech extremely ugly people, of which there are few, MOST people are physically appealing to some degree. And the nebech in a burlap sack looks about the same as the one in a camisole or muscle T. I wouldn’t prima facie want to nail either one of them, but, you know, maybe after I read their articles…
And no, the weight-conscious friend, whose hips are (r”l) about a size and a half smaller than mine, you don’t see her on onlysimchas either (yet, iy”h ;-) So folks, not that it helps, but you probably look pretty darn OK in that outfit.
And as for the non-Jews, it’s none of our damn business what they wear. Let them walk around naked as long as they refrain from the silly cultural gibes in our direction.
OK, now I am really going off my beam. Sorry. It just upsets me how people construct these paper tigers and use them to make themselves unhappy. (Not you, Josh. I just think of all the nights consoling my unhappy friends.)
My point above–that a pretty large spectrum of weights can still be sexually attractive to a red-blooded person, and most people aren’t even at the heavy end of the spectrum–does not affect my other opinion, as follows. Despite the weight tirade above, and despite the rarity of repulsive people, there are STILL real distinctions in the beauty index. Ignore them at your peril. But the yetser hara acts of its own accord. You may worry about your dress, your affect, whatever, but this isn’t going to do that much to change whether your would-be is thinking about you as s/he, like, lehavdil, the Rambam zts”l at the end of the Guide, lies on the bed and reflects. I’m not saying don’t dress up! That’s wonderful. Just remember that flesh and blood is funny stuff.
That’s fine, someone says, but I’m attracted to the all-American and that is that. Good for you. But you’ve never, ever thought askance about someone who didn’t fit the mold? Not once? I’m not trying to be vulgar. I just want to point out that human needs are not as carefully constructed as we sometimes take them to be.
Totally did not get that woman’s rant in the mndaily. I work with women who visually offer almost all they’ve got. At meetings, I sometimes wonder, do you really think anyone is paying attention to your ideas? That guy across from you is studiously…never mind.
No guy I have ever worked with used visually sexual turn-ons to get ahead, but plenty of women do. Is that a level playing field?
And while we’re at it, I vote that low-rise jeans not be manufactured above a certain size. I really don’t need to see women’s spare tires.
i was thinking about this on the subway – it ties in with everything about how people dress. like the shirts that just button, and open to expose breasts and bras on the subway – not all of these women mean to show that.
i think it’s just a case of needing more thought into what you’re wearing, and the look you’re trying to achieve. if you’re trying to be sexy, make sure it looks good. if you’re trying to be professional, make sure you’re not giving a peep show. this is for guys and girls.
if you want to expose skin, do so – just be aware that the public reception of your outfit might not be as excited as you had hoped.
I always loved that line from an En Vogue song: “I wear tight clothing, high heeled shoes, but that don’t mean that I’m a prostitute.” Obviously, she just wears them for comfort….right? We are how we dress and clothes doth make the man and woman. A person’s physical appearance IS a reflection of their personality, especially to day when virtually everytbhing about one’s appearance can be changed at whim. More telling is the way a reasonable person reacts to self-proclaimed humorous blog posting with severe seriousness. And remember what Freddy Mercury (A”H) said: “Fat bottomed gilrs, you amke the rocking world go ’round!”
Er, Josh (if I may)? I may be paraphrasing the concerns of others, but I think you can *either* tell people they don’t have good enough figures to wear their chosen clothing *or* tell them that a certain standard of modesty (with the accompanying standard of not staring!) is religiously preferable anyway. The two messages don’t fit well with one another.
Personal testimony: I dress very modestly whenever I am going into work or shul, because I like to project a professional image and because it’s really dull to have guys addressing my chest. That covers six days out of seven, but I do dress down when I’m fixing stuff around the house or gardening in the backyard. And honesty compels me to point out that I get an awful lot of suspiciously interested guys striking up conversations when I try to dash into Home Depot to pick up supplies in mid-project. When I stop off there on my way back from work, though… not so much. ;)
I agree with pieces of everyone’s posts. My body isn’t really bikini-ready, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a middle ground of revealing for me. I can’t speak for extremely frum women, but women like to feel attractive, and there’s always a way to be sexy and still on the safe side of fully clothed. I do refuse to reign myself in because not everyone will find me attractive. And as for the women who expose more than the posters think that they should, aside from pulling an “intentional wardrobe malfunction,” I support their right to celebrate their own bodies, as fleshy or unapproved as they might be. In a way, I envy their “if you’ve got it, flaunt it, whatever it is” confidence.
Generally, I think we should judge each other less by what we wear and how we look, and more by the content of our character. Though there are those who would say that any judgment is wrong, flaws abound in life and in people, and contrary to the original post, I kind of wish people would reveal personalities more readily. It would certainly help in the dating process.
Esther –
I totally agree with you, except that I believe that a lot of people express their personality through the clothing that they wear. Though I also think that you can certainly express your personality through dress while still covering a good bit of skin. I think the problem comes in when people wear so little clothing that it makes it difficult to look beyond the massive amounts of skin they are showing to focus on what is inside. Though there might be some out there who are so insecure with WHO they are that their mission is to have others focus on what they look like.
Maybe my points got lost in my rantings above. To reiterate:
1. The relationship between tsniyut/body type/sex appeal is not as straightforward as “overweight people look better covered up.” It’s a matter of TASTE.
2. It is nobody’s business at all what non-Jews wear! This is a free society, and if X person wears something to make themselves look silly or ugly or unprofessional in public, that is NOT THE OBSERVER’S PROBLEM.
“We also have our flaws. There’s no reason to emphasize them in public”
Right, and there’s no need to publicize *every* thought that passes through your mind.
Truthfully, most women who dressed “tznisudik” aren’t troubled by it, because it works in their favor. NOT in the sense that you say, that it covers flaws, although it may to some extent. But because women who don’t wear revealing clothing land up paying much more attention to whether the clothes they wear are flattering. They can’t just put on a miniskirt or wear something low-cut to attract attention, so they tune in to whether, within the constraints of tzniut, their clothing flatters them. It works better on guys too. If someone is wearing a miniskirt, you know they are trying The girl who is dressed modestly, the guy doesn’t think she’s trying, and lands up thinking that she attracts him despite being so modest – so she gets extra points for that, she must really be hot, lol. Or have great style. Tznius is a very effective form of subterfuge.